Asking only workman’s wages
I come looking for a job
But I get no offers,
Just a come-on from the whores on Seventh Avenue
I do declare, there were times when I was so lonesome
I took some comfort there
Lie la lie
Lie la lie lie lie la lie, lie la lie
– Simon and Garfunkel, The Boxer
Indulge me in this hypothetical situation. Someone you’ve never met before, with whom you have no prior relationship, comes up to you and says “Hi, I’m going to lie to you, and you should pay me for the privilege.” What would you do? What would you say?
I’m betting you’d put your hand on your wallet (in order to make sure it’s still there), and you’d tell them to take a hike.
That’s the same kind of squicky feeling I get the more I hear about the new Seth Godin book, All Marketers Are Liars. The most troubling quote I’ve seen so far from the book:
“Tell a story that is memorable and remarkable and worth listening to. Seduce your customers, because that’s exactly what they want you to do. That requires ruthless selectivity and creative storytelling—in other words, lying.”
I am continually stunned by this unbelievable disrespect for customers (who, by the way, Godin continues to refer to as consumers). Mindless automatons we must all be, interested only in entertainment, yearning for fanciful yarns that induce us to shell out cash. This assumes all customers are homogeneous with respect to a need and that a great “story” will be the trigger that induces them to buy. I just don’t think this is the situation.
Although Godin seems to find “case studies” (term used loosely) and has retrofit them to fit his needs, the trend is going the other way. Away from homogeneity. Out into the long tail. The trend is toward uniqueness and connections and relationships. It’s not about finding the best common self-deception that consumers (errg, I get the willies just typing that word) have, and trying to mimic it.
Good customers, thinking customers, create their own connections, and their own histories. Customers engaged in a community create their own stories, based on shared experiences.
Say you do follow the “liars” advice, and create a great story to catch a market. When that “story” changes to catch the next fad (as it must), what happens to the customer who bought into the original façade? What is your response? “Screw ’em, time to ship more product, time to come up with a new story and catch the next big thing.” How will that customer feel when the façade is pulled back, when he or she gets to roll around to the back of the lot, and sees that the town was two-dimensional? How long will that relationship last?
I guess I’m not the only one who has a dissenting opinion on this, um, story. Publisher’s Weekly had this to say:
“Readers will likely find the book’s practical advice as rudderless as its ethical principles.”
In the “liars” world, how do you measure success? The “liars” approach forces one to measure success from the seller’s point of view. For focusing on the customer’s actual results immediately breaks the illusion.
Others talking:
Tom Guarriello: “But, am I the only one who thinks that this “lying” business muddies more than it clarifies?”
Johnnie Moore: “An awful lot of storytelling is done after the event. Stories rationalise action.”
Peter Caputa: “…the Marketing Messiah for scribbling oft-borrowed common sense marketing lessons down in story form.”
Ed Brenegar: “So, what then is at the crux of this interaction? It is the relationship between two people. Or one person and a lot of individuals collectively. We are not telling stories in the aether. We are telling them in a specific social, physical, relational, personal context.”
I’m not a huge fan of Seth’s, but I suggest you read the entire book before you judge it. Publisher’s Weekly has never had anything good to say about any of his books, BTW.
In his interviews for the pre-release of the book, Godin admits that all marketer’s aren’t really liars. In fact, that’s printed on the back cover. It was a ploy to get people to pay attention to the book. And hey, it worked.
While the subjects you cover in your post are all very valid (and ones I completely agree with), they aren’t necessarily contradicting the book.
I read the whole book.
I judged it.
(http://www.thevisionthing.com/index.php?p=531)
Spike, can you provide some examples of how Chris’ commentary isn’t contradicting the book? The thing I found especially irksome about the book is the way he “insulates” himself against any possible criticism by saying things like “if you don’t like this book, it’s because you’re biased” (not a direct quote). Mrgh.
Spike, I’d be happy to. If one of the Seth minions wants to send a copy to review, I’d do so.
Please note that I did read the full set of vignettes and every word in the FSB excerpt…and if those aren’t representative, then perhaps there really is some lying going on.
>Publisher’s Weekly has never had anything good to say about any of his books, BTW.
Just because they’re consistent, it doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
Yikes. I’m an uninvited guest, but here goes. Three preambles…
First, I agree with Spike that it’s always a good idea to read something before you hate it.
Second, I love the word “squicky”.
Third, I’m not sure why Ethan quotes me, with real quotation marks no less, even though I never said anything of the sort.
Now, on to my comments:
I couldn’t agree more with Christopher’s squicky feeling. I get it all the time. That’s why I took a year of my life to write a book that outed the fraudulent marketers for doing something I find reprehensible.
But why do they do it? Are they bad people? Or are they getting carried away with how easy it is to sell when you tell a story?
The flip side is this: what about the worthwhile charities, political movements and organizations that are failing despite the fact that their work is important? I think it’s because they DON’T tell an effective story. I’m sorry that they have to tell a story, I wish we made our decisions based on all the facts, but we don’t. We’re human. We make judgments based on stories. What would happen if labor unions or progressive politicans or others you may support followed the advice in my book?
The proof that people love to believe stories? Christopher bought a story about my book based on the cover, a few reviews and some posts. He doesn’t have time to read everything, to taste every food, to interview every politician. He, like all of us, makes judgments in a heartbeat based on limited data. So, if you’re trying to spread your ideas, it makes sense to choose which data people will see, doesn’t it? Eventually they’ll see all of it, but they’ll do it in the right frame of mind.
I’m may be guilty of telling my story ineffectively. But recognizing it as a story is a valid contribution to the discussion, don’t you think?
>But recognizing it as a story is a valid contribution to the discussion, don’t you think?
Heh. My friend Greg, with whom I worked for many years, is one of the brightest people I’ve ever met. He also was one of the best debaters I have ever encountered. He taught me a lot. In particular, he used to always start his soliloquies with the phrase “But, you do agree that…”
If you say yes, it’s garden path time. The frog is in the pot, and on its way to a slow boil. Was taken in by that gambit a bunch of times before I learned. But I did learn. And I digress.
>First, I agree with Spike that it’s always a good idea to read something before you hate it.
Happy to. My offer still stands, per the above.
Seth, I believe we are coming at this from two very different points of view. I have a fundamental belief that things should be approached and measured based on the customer’s objective success in achieving their goals, and *not* based on how many units of product are moved. You do agree that it’s important to look at things from the customer’s point of view, don’t you?
First of all, this is fun.
Second of all, you like Publisher’s Weekly, Chris, because you agree with their worldview. I don’t like them, because I don’t agree with it. There’s an interesting section about that very topic in, hey, could it be? Yes, Seth’s new book.
Third, like I said, I’m not a “minion” of Seths, but I like how he refreshes my memory. And if nothing else, he makes you THINK. Which, in this industry, is a great thing – especially on the corporate marketing side. I can’t tell you how many doors I’ve gotten into by sending a prospect one of his books with a few highlighted passages. It starts a conversation. Not unlike this one.
I love what you’re doing with your blog, Chris, so don’t consider me a hostile blogger. On the contrary, I agree with 98% of what you have to say. Just not today.
Lastly, thanks for sticking up for those who are sticking up for you, Seth.
To paraphrase Terry Boers, reading is a skill.
Check out the parenthetical comment next to my “quote”.
Yeah, about those judgements based on limited data…
Yes, Chris, in fact just about every word I’ve written over the last six years supports that precise point. “No one cares about you” (you being the marketer) is the essence of FREE PRIZE INSIDE. “Nobody wants to hear from you–unless they ask for it” is the essence of PERMISSION MARKETING. I’ve been walking that walk for a very long time–and taking flak from everyone from the DMA to the pharmas for a very long time as well.
I don’t think we disagree a whit, actually, about the core idea here. Which is that companies serve people, not the other way around.
My book is about something very different than that. It’s about the fact that people often choose to consume not because they need but because they want. And what they want rarely has a lot to do with what they just consumed.
If you are in the business of giving people what they want, it helps to know what they want. And what they want more than just about anything is a story. A story about things to believe in, or a story about self esteem, or a story about the world as a better place or or or …
My book is about that. About crafting the story that people want. The great news is that inauthentic stories are easier than ever to sniff out. Manipulation is possible, but hard to sustain.
My goal in writing the book is to help the “good guys” figure out how to tell better stories so that their useful messages and products could reach larger audiences. I think they deserve that.
Thanks for taking the time to read my post.
Have to bow out for a few, have a commitment to a customer that I intend to keep. Seth, your thoughtful responses warrant likewise consideration…will be back.
Oh, by the way…
>Yikes. I’m an uninvited guest, but here goes…
There are no “uninvited guests” here. This is an open, meritocratic community. All are welcome, even…and especially…those with dissenting viewpoints. That’s how we learn from each other.
>I don’t think we disagree a whit, actually, about the core idea here. Which is that companies serve people, not the other way around.
Excellent, and agreed.
>My book is about something very different than that.
Here’s where think the divergence begins.
>It’s about the fact that people often choose to consume not because they need but because they want.
*Consume*
(Falls on ground, twitching, and foams at mouth.)
Consume: Injest => Process => Excrete => Discard. Repeat.
Herein may lie the source of the aforementioned squick. “Consumers” follow the above linear process. Compare that with the viewpoint of a loyal “customer” (not “consumer,” but customer). A relationship with a customer is an ongoing, constantly evolving, constantly renewing thing. It’s not a one-time transaction. It’s a commitment, from both sides.
>If you are in the business of giving people what they want, it helps to know what they want.
Another difference here. If I were in the business of giving people what they want, my kids would be having chocolate cake and soda for breakfast every day. They’d be happy. But not healthy.
The customer outcomes need to be measurable, objective and repeatable.
There is another line in The Boxer that goes, “People hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest.” Why? Because lots of people are searching for some way of understanding who they are. Either they like who they are, or they don’t. If they don’t they look for ways to be or appear different. Living a lie, in a sense. Many people look to consumer products to fill in the gaps that their own self-perception lacks.
Seth’s book is a contribution to this, but not the whole story. Products can be transformative, or not. Marketers can make a difference in the lives of people. All that it takes is for each marketer/consumer to be an authentic person, foster authentic relationships that lead to fulfilling the opportunities that come from that interaction. When authenticity grows, consumers have a better idea of actually what they want, and those marketers who are in touch with them will have a better idea how to provide them the products and services they desire.
Its more than conversations. Its relationships.
First you cut down a book using lines taken out of context and having not read it, then tell the author that you’ll read his book, IF he sends you a free copy.
What pomposity!
http://edbrenegar.typepad.com/universityofwom/2005/06/chris_carfi_at_.html
Chris Carfi at The Social Customer Manifesto critiques Seth Godin’s All Marketers are Liars book. Make sure you read the comments.
Ed writes:
“When authenticity grows, consumers have a better idea of actually what they want, and those marketers who are in touch with them will have a better idea how to provide them the products and services they desire.
Its more than conversations. Its relationships.”
Ab.so.lute.ly. And then can’t that be taken a step further?
Transaction => Conversation => Relationship => Community
The transaction is the one-off, no-personal-investment, one-time purchase.
The conversation helps each party understand who, authentically (to use your word), the other party is, and how they may be able to collaboratively work to solve a problem.
The relationship develops between the marketer and the customer, through a series of conversations over time. (I supposed these conversations may even become persistent, through blogs, wikis, or other technology, no?)
As this cycle continues, a number of relationships eventually develop. Not only between the original two parties, but also between customers who are working on similar problems (what a good user group does), other vendors who are solving complementary portions of the problem, individuals within and without all of the organizations involved, and so forth. At that point, a community is formed, which consists of the interconnected relationships that have emerged from those initial conversations. Thoughts?
If you assume that all customers are buying products that lend themselves to user groups and feedback loops and so forth, then you are 100% right.
However, when my problem is “hunger” and my situation is “traveling” and the situational solution is “twinkies,” I don’t need, nor do I have the opportunity to create a community.
However if Clif bar can “tell me a story” that I buy into — that a healthy, hungry traveler can have a better solution than twinkies – what’s wrong with that?
Transaction => Conversation => Relationship => Community
Depends on what you call community. I had an interesting dialogue with several people back in March and April about online communities. I questioned whether you could call them communities because they seemed to be only based on common interest, not commitment and a willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of the whole set of relationships. This is where commercial relationships break down. I can have a client relationships of respect and mutual benefit.
But to take it the level of community requires us transcending the commercial relationship. It has to become something else – shall we say – friendship?
For me, all of this comes down to standards. I find that expectations for what people get out of relationships are high, but their standards for what constitutes friendship and community pretty low.
The dialogue we are having about Seth’s book is congenial, insightful, mutually beneficial, yet, we are not a community. And it think that is okay. I can have quality relationships of depth and caring with clients, yet not be in community with them. There is a level of intimacy that we never ascend to that makes the difference.
Gillette’s Close Shave With The Truth
I was reading a great conversation over at The Social Customer Manifesto (thanks Johnnie) about whether it is reasonable for marketers to
Some of my comments regarding your post are here (http://www.businesspundit.com/archives/002082.html)
A post is also up at http://www.businessblogcasting.com
(http://www.businessblogcasting.com/archives/textblog/2005/06/the_vice_presid.html#trackbacks)
I just posted a comment on Business Pundit on this topic, which is how I linked over here.
I like Seth Godin and his book “Free Prize Inside”.
I probably will not buy this new book, however.
I’m quite sick of the hype about “storytelling” and “narrative”.
Guys tell women all sorts of lies in a bar, just to get into their pants. This “true lies” stuff reminds of that.
“What do you want me to say?” pleads the asshole guy who wants to say anything he has to say, just to get the woman to shut up and so he can go back to his football game.
This is a Male Chauvinist Pig syndrome, and I bet the gals can see right through it with no problem at all.
Tell a lie, the “consumer” believes it, the lie “becomes” true for them, no harm is done?
“Jews are an inferior race, they cause all the problems in the world, and must be exterminated.”
That was a lie that “became true” for Nazis, to justify genocide. Or how about “the only good Indian is a dead Indian” to justify American genocide?
Perception is NOT reality. Perception is interpretation of reality. Reality does not care how poorly or well you perceive it, it remains what it is. No story will change reality. Gravity exists, no matter what story you tell about it.
I find all this very troubling. “Tell a story”?
Customers do not want stories. We have an overload of stories already. How many novels bomb, films are not viewed?
Customers want benefits, solutions to problems, answers to questions, enhancements of life.
We don’t have time to listen to “lying stories”, ie, BS.
Get real, please.
Whew…I’m not alone in disliking Seth Godin’s new book
I’ve been feeling a little lonely as I noticed all the reviews by other people who were clearly untroubled by ethical considerations in considering Seth Godin’s latest book.
Whew…I’m not alone in disliking Seth Godin’s new book
I’ve been feeling a little lonely as I noticed all the reviews by other people who were clearly untroubled by ethical considerations in considering Seth Godin’s latest book.
Whew…I’m not alone in disliking Seth Godin’s new book
I’ve been feeling a little lonely as I noticed all the reviews by other people who were clearly untroubled by ethical considerations in considering Seth Godin’s latest book.
Whew…I’m not alone in disliking Seth Godin’s new book.
I’ve been feeling a little lonely as I noticed the reviews of Seth Godin’s book by people who were apparently untroubled by the ethical considerations.
Whew…I’m not alone in disliking Seth Godin’s new book.
I’ve been feeling a little lonely as I noticed the reviews of Seth Godin’s book by people who were apparently untroubled by the ethical considerations.